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John: What is the distinction you make between listening and thought? As you speak about the things that prevent us from listening wide open, it sounds like they're the thoughts we're having.
Carol: Yes. You have thoughts going through your mind all the time. The listening state to achieve is that place where you diminish the background thoughts and really train yourself to have one consistent thought, which is: "This person has value." That can mean "this person is interesting" or "this person is a leader" or "this person is capable." All other thoughts you work to get out of your head. That's why I say listening is not passive. If you find yourself straying, you focus your attention on the person. Whatever thought comes up other than "This person is interesting, this person is capable, this person is a leader," you get rid of. You're very proactive in this process. That's why it's work.
Now, here's the good news. After awhile you don't have to do that much work because you've trained yourself to listen to people a certain way. It's like a paradigm shift in your reactions to people. Out of that shift, listening begins to be very fluid for you. It does take practice to get there, however.
John: It sounds like you're programming yourself to listen in a more open, nonattached way.
Carol: That's a good word, nonattached. It doesn't matter what they say really. That they are heard is what really matters. That's what frees them up. That's what liberates them to go do what they want in their life. John, you know one of the things that all of us want is to be accepted. Really being heard provides unconditional acceptance. The listener is saying, "Who you are is valuable so what you say is valuable. It's worth hearing. I may not agree with it and that doesn't matter. I don't have to agree in order to listen to you."
John: Wait a minute. You don't have to agree?
Carol: That's right.
John: In trying to remember all of the conversations of my life right now, I recall that they so often fall into "agree" or "disagree." When I disagree with someone I find that to be disagreeable. What am I up to there? What am I doing in my listening?
Carol: You are evaluating, judging, weighing whether or not their particular paradigm fits yours and if it's going to affect your life in any way. In authentic listening that's not necessary. The two of you have joined together and you're communicating that "I'm listening to you. You're going to show me how you see things. You're going to demonstrate to me how you perceive life and how you want to go through life. I'm looking at it with you as a nonattached observer. It's like a research project for both of us. I'm there simply to see what you have. You're showing me your wares, so to speak. I don't have to agree with your paradigm. I simply need to listen."
John: So, I can listen to someone as a jerk, and I can listen to someone as a leader? Are you really saying that's how they're going to show up?
Carol: That's exactly how they're going to show up. You see, I can listen to a leader, someone who's been proclaimed as a leader in our society, and hold them as a jerk. I listen to that person as though they're a jerk. Everything that comes out of their mouth is a stupid thing to say. "Wow, what a jerk!" I will miss any gems of wisdom. Because of the way I listen to that person, I will miss anything that will be of value to my life. I can't hear anything of importance that they have to say. All of my listening is directed toward that person so they show up like a jerk. I'll look for all the faults in that person, all the errors they make because I've already determined they're a jerk.
When I listen to someone as though they're a leader, what I will see are their strengths, the things they've accomplished. What I will see in their actions are the things that they fulfill and deliver on for all of us, that benefit everybody. I will listen for their value. I will listen for a contribution because I've already determined that they're a leader. That's how this process works. That's what listening does. What's important is for us to catch the listening that we have for people – those thoughts that are constantly going through our minds. We have them about everybody. They're called opinions. People tend to get rigid with their opinions. They think, "My opinion is who I am." Not so. You are far more than your opinions and opinions can be changed. You can change an opinion by changing your listening.
John: If you've been with a person for five years, ten years, fifteen years, you probably have a set type of listening for him or for her. That's a pretty powerful state. Do we literally keep or create our relationships at the level they are by how we're listening?
Carol: Yes, we do. We've developed these opinions early in our relationships. They may have seemed small at the time but they've affected us. We all have a habit of saying, "Well, it wasn't that big a deal." Oh, yes it was! It was a big deal because out of that we formed an opinion, i.e., a type of listening for that person early in the relationship. If they forgot to call us and told us they were coming home thirty minutes late, we decided they can't be counted on. They lied. They don't love me. They just don't think I'm important. Fleeting as these opinions may be, they become a kind of listening we have for that person. That person could spend the next 20 or 30 years trying to prove to us that they love us. We make them prove it because of that one night – that one incident. We continue to look for evidence to support our opinions. The next time they come in five minutes late – See! The next time they come in an hour late – See! We keep looking for evidence because we've already designed a listening about that person.
Carol: When you start to deal with your listening it's like catching your thoughts. You can catch a thought. You can hold a thought. We even say, "Hold that thought." You can train yourself to listen to things in a certain way. You can adapt to social trends and the idiosyncrasies of the era. We listen for trends, for the direction we're moving in, and adjust our thinking. Rules and regulations are general thoughts that we all subscribe to. They are really no more than that.
Holding a thought and creating a thought are the same thing. You can create a listening. You can hold a listening. A listening is something you can grab on to. It takes time in the beginning. After awhile it becomes very simple.
John: Beyond individual listening there seems to be a collective listening that occurs – such as the "listening of the 1990s." With the 1980s it was, "Greed is good." The 1970s was the "me" decade.
Carol: Every decade has a listening.
John: So nations and cultures and corporations and teams and socioeconomic groups all have listenings?
Carol: Yes. It's important for us to recognize those as listenings because listenings can be changed. When I have an opinion about someone or something, there's actually a stop in energy. When I listen to someone there's an opening. The word itself brings with it an openness. Opinions tend to be counter to each other. They tend to be antagonistic, unless they're in total agreement.
John: So that's where agree/disagree comes in. With opinions, the game that's being played is agree/disagree.
Carol: You can change your listening just like a radio station. You can prefer certain kinds of ways to listen to people. There's an energy exchange when you listen to people a certain way. If you listen to them from a strict opinion, then you have locked them in. One typical way we listen to people is to interrupt them. We finish people's sentences. We chime in like we already know what they're going to say. That immediately stifles the communication.
John: Why are we doing that?
Carol: There are many reasons: to demonstrate how smart we are or to convey something about ourselves: "I'm really here to please you" or "I'm really here to challenge you." It's about me, me, me when I do that. Anytime I interrupt, finish, or "add on to" without permission, without waiting for the other person, it's very me-oriented. We're not listening to anyone but ourselves.
John: In conversation, I often find myself becoming impatient with people. What's that about?
Carol: It could be a number of things, John. It could be that you're impatient for them to hurry up and finish what they have to say because what you have to say is far more valuable. You may have the thought that this person isn't listening to you and you want to get out of there. You may be impatient because they are interrupting you and cutting you off, or interrupting themselves and cutting themselves off. Some people don't even listen to what they themselves have to say, so the flow in their communication is choppy and disjointed. They're not complete because they're not listening and they're rushing through, anticipating that you're going to stop them because the rest of the world has interrupted them all their lives.
You need to pay close attention to how you communicate. How do you speak? And, more importantly, how do you listen?
Just recently I was working with some people and one of the individuals in the group was rushing to finish what he had to say. I recall saying, "Slow down. We are here to listen." His response was very revealing; he said, "I've always been told to hurry up because if I didn't I would not be able to finish because somebody would finish for me." Can you imagine growing up as a child being told, "We're not going to listen to you long enough for you to finish what you have to say; we're going to finish it for you"?
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PROGRAMS